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	<title>Comments on: The Root of Reasoned DiscourseTM</title>
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	<link>http://www.snowflakesinhell.com/2008/06/09/the-root-of-reasoned-discoursetm/</link>
	<description>Firearms Policy and Politics in Pennsylvania</description>
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		<title>By: charles kestner</title>
		<link>http://www.snowflakesinhell.com/2008/06/09/the-root-of-reasoned-discoursetm/#comment-24622</link>
		<dc:creator>charles kestner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Jun 2008 13:01:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.snowflakesinhell.com/?p=3705#comment-24622</guid>
		<description>Recently, I mailed out to my friends (gun owners and others, i.e. liberals) and laid it out for them on the Leading Causes of Death in the USA in the USA in 2005. (Latest year with full figures.)

The bottom line was that of the 2.4M folks who died that year, 57% of them succumbing to heart disease, cancer, strokes and diabetes.

Less than ONE per-cent died because of firearms (all variations - accidents, homocide, police and suicide).

I then, not very tactfully, suggested that they could better invest their efforts and monies by educating the public on the dangers of cheeseburgers, tobacco, alcohol and candy.

MUCH better bang (heh!) for the buck to attack the 57% rather than the 1%.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Recently, I mailed out to my friends (gun owners and others, i.e. liberals) and laid it out for them on the Leading Causes of Death in the USA in the USA in 2005. (Latest year with full figures.)</p>
<p>The bottom line was that of the 2.4M folks who died that year, 57% of them succumbing to heart disease, cancer, strokes and diabetes.</p>
<p>Less than ONE per-cent died because of firearms (all variations &#8211; accidents, homocide, police and suicide).</p>
<p>I then, not very tactfully, suggested that they could better invest their efforts and monies by educating the public on the dangers of cheeseburgers, tobacco, alcohol and candy.</p>
<p>MUCH better bang (heh!) for the buck to attack the 57% rather than the 1%.</p>
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		<title>By: Jacob</title>
		<link>http://www.snowflakesinhell.com/2008/06/09/the-root-of-reasoned-discoursetm/#comment-24605</link>
		<dc:creator>Jacob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Jun 2008 22:57:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.snowflakesinhell.com/?p=3705#comment-24605</guid>
		<description>Absolutely get involved in the selection and election processes.  That’s the only way to be taken seriously.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Absolutely get involved in the selection and election processes.  That’s the only way to be taken seriously.</p>
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		<title>By: RAH</title>
		<link>http://www.snowflakesinhell.com/2008/06/09/the-root-of-reasoned-discoursetm/#comment-24604</link>
		<dc:creator>RAH</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Jun 2008 22:39:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.snowflakesinhell.com/?p=3705#comment-24604</guid>
		<description>Jacob,
 That bolsters Sebastian&#039;s argument that we need to be more active in local politics. To personally know our leglistors maybe have their numbers on our cell phones. Visit them at their offices, get on first name basis. Know the clerks who put things onn agendas. That type of stuff.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jacob,<br />
 That bolsters Sebastian&#8217;s argument that we need to be more active in local politics. To personally know our leglistors maybe have their numbers on our cell phones. Visit them at their offices, get on first name basis. Know the clerks who put things onn agendas. That type of stuff.</p>
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		<title>By: Jacob</title>
		<link>http://www.snowflakesinhell.com/2008/06/09/the-root-of-reasoned-discoursetm/#comment-24603</link>
		<dc:creator>Jacob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Jun 2008 22:32:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.snowflakesinhell.com/?p=3705#comment-24603</guid>
		<description>RAH, let&#039;s just say I make it a point to know everything that&#039;s going on.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>RAH, let&#8217;s just say I make it a point to know everything that&#8217;s going on.</p>
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		<title>By: Jacob</title>
		<link>http://www.snowflakesinhell.com/2008/06/09/the-root-of-reasoned-discoursetm/#comment-24602</link>
		<dc:creator>Jacob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Jun 2008 22:30:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.snowflakesinhell.com/?p=3705#comment-24602</guid>
		<description>The public doesn’t elect politicians, organized special interests do.  They provide the money, manpower and votes.  Go look through disclosure reports from the board of elections and you and can tell who is effectively running the show.

Politics is dueling activists.  There’s a lot few antis, but they are a lot better at what they do.  That’s why you don’t have an MP5.  Bob Ricker may just be one man, but he’s a hell of a lot better at what he does than you, Bitter, everyone on your blog roll and just about everybody who has ever read one of those blogs all put together.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The public doesn’t elect politicians, organized special interests do.  They provide the money, manpower and votes.  Go look through disclosure reports from the board of elections and you and can tell who is effectively running the show.</p>
<p>Politics is dueling activists.  There’s a lot few antis, but they are a lot better at what they do.  That’s why you don’t have an MP5.  Bob Ricker may just be one man, but he’s a hell of a lot better at what he does than you, Bitter, everyone on your blog roll and just about everybody who has ever read one of those blogs all put together.</p>
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		<title>By: RAH</title>
		<link>http://www.snowflakesinhell.com/2008/06/09/the-root-of-reasoned-discoursetm/#comment-24600</link>
		<dc:creator>RAH</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Jun 2008 22:24:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.snowflakesinhell.com/?p=3705#comment-24600</guid>
		<description>I agree  with you because the anti tries to circumvent the normal debate process. How did you find out about the dog and pony show? That is a perfect example of pinpoint precision to get the right people to the right place and the right time.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree  with you because the anti tries to circumvent the normal debate process. How did you find out about the dog and pony show? That is a perfect example of pinpoint precision to get the right people to the right place and the right time.</p>
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		<title>By: Jacob</title>
		<link>http://www.snowflakesinhell.com/2008/06/09/the-root-of-reasoned-discoursetm/#comment-24599</link>
		<dc:creator>Jacob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Jun 2008 22:12:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.snowflakesinhell.com/?p=3705#comment-24599</guid>
		<description>RAH, exactly four people were involved in Ball&#039;s sabotaging that microstamping dog and pony show: me, Ball, our NRA/NSSF rep. and his partner in the NSSF and I wasn’t even in NY at the time.  After arriving in Louisville Thursday I sent out an e-mail alert about the demo which the NRA rep. got.  The NRA rep. contacted me directly and forwarded the note onto his NSSF partner who just so happened to be at the Makers Mark pub that evening.  Meanwhile, the NRA rep. contacted Ball who already knew what was going on because he’s also subscribed to our alert list.  Monday rolls around and the three of them show up at the range and the antis hopes of bullshitting microstamping through the legislature went down the drain for the year.  Public opinion?  Will of the people?  Hardly.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>RAH, exactly four people were involved in Ball&#8217;s sabotaging that microstamping dog and pony show: me, Ball, our NRA/NSSF rep. and his partner in the NSSF and I wasn’t even in NY at the time.  After arriving in Louisville Thursday I sent out an e-mail alert about the demo which the NRA rep. got.  The NRA rep. contacted me directly and forwarded the note onto his NSSF partner who just so happened to be at the Makers Mark pub that evening.  Meanwhile, the NRA rep. contacted Ball who already knew what was going on because he’s also subscribed to our alert list.  Monday rolls around and the three of them show up at the range and the antis hopes of bullshitting microstamping through the legislature went down the drain for the year.  Public opinion?  Will of the people?  Hardly.</p>
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		<title>By: RAH</title>
		<link>http://www.snowflakesinhell.com/2008/06/09/the-root-of-reasoned-discoursetm/#comment-24598</link>
		<dc:creator>RAH</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Jun 2008 22:01:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.snowflakesinhell.com/?p=3705#comment-24598</guid>
		<description>I think the question should be is it better to get this in the states or federal. I think the states since that is where it affects the people directly. If we are good on the state level the federal will follow. Though having a Prsident who is not for gun control is very important too, since that sets a tone to possible federal legislation</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the question should be is it better to get this in the states or federal. I think the states since that is where it affects the people directly. If we are good on the state level the federal will follow. Though having a Prsident who is not for gun control is very important too, since that sets a tone to possible federal legislation</p>
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		<title>By: Sebastian</title>
		<link>http://www.snowflakesinhell.com/2008/06/09/the-root-of-reasoned-discoursetm/#comment-24597</link>
		<dc:creator>Sebastian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Jun 2008 21:53:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.snowflakesinhell.com/?p=3705#comment-24597</guid>
		<description>And on that note, the reason that LA Times article, and it turns out it also appeared in the Chicago Tribune, is so subversive is because it&#039;s appearing in a media market where people have almost no exposure to the idea that gun owners are anything other than police or criminals, and maybe actors for LA.  The only other image they have of gun owners are ignorant rural people who drink beer while hunting, and then go home to hump their cousin.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And on that note, the reason that LA Times article, and it turns out it also appeared in the Chicago Tribune, is so subversive is because it&#8217;s appearing in a media market where people have almost no exposure to the idea that gun owners are anything other than police or criminals, and maybe actors for LA.  The only other image they have of gun owners are ignorant rural people who drink beer while hunting, and then go home to hump their cousin.</p>
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		<title>By: Sebastian</title>
		<link>http://www.snowflakesinhell.com/2008/06/09/the-root-of-reasoned-discoursetm/#comment-24596</link>
		<dc:creator>Sebastian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Jun 2008 21:51:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.snowflakesinhell.com/?p=3705#comment-24596</guid>
		<description>So who is electing all the politicians who are voting for this stuff?   If it were just a matter of dueling activists, I&#039;d be able to own my own fully automatic MP5 by now.   Public opinion does matter, because it&#039;s the public who puts politicians in office who vote for microstamping.  It may not have been the people of New York pushing for it, but the gun control people found something that sounds like a great idea to an ignorant public and ignorant politicians who either know nothing of gun ownership, or look down on it.  At the very least, it doesn&#039;t affect them, or anyone they know, so they will acquiesce.  You can&#039;t completely ignore public opinion, because it&#039;s the wall that limits what you can accomplish.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So who is electing all the politicians who are voting for this stuff?   If it were just a matter of dueling activists, I&#8217;d be able to own my own fully automatic MP5 by now.   Public opinion does matter, because it&#8217;s the public who puts politicians in office who vote for microstamping.  It may not have been the people of New York pushing for it, but the gun control people found something that sounds like a great idea to an ignorant public and ignorant politicians who either know nothing of gun ownership, or look down on it.  At the very least, it doesn&#8217;t affect them, or anyone they know, so they will acquiesce.  You can&#8217;t completely ignore public opinion, because it&#8217;s the wall that limits what you can accomplish.</p>
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		<title>By: RAH</title>
		<link>http://www.snowflakesinhell.com/2008/06/09/the-root-of-reasoned-discoursetm/#comment-24592</link>
		<dc:creator>RAH</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Jun 2008 21:36:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.snowflakesinhell.com/?p=3705#comment-24592</guid>
		<description>CA was the first to get the microstamping and the liberal environment elected more anti gun politicians. I called seven times to Arnold against this bill and he still signed it. After that  more folks were aware and started to fight it. It has failed, I believe, every state since, but NY is still thinking. Rep Ball stopped that I believe because the time allowed people to get to the politicians and lobby against this.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>CA was the first to get the microstamping and the liberal environment elected more anti gun politicians. I called seven times to Arnold against this bill and he still signed it. After that  more folks were aware and started to fight it. It has failed, I believe, every state since, but NY is still thinking. Rep Ball stopped that I believe because the time allowed people to get to the politicians and lobby against this.</p>
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		<title>By: Jacob</title>
		<link>http://www.snowflakesinhell.com/2008/06/09/the-root-of-reasoned-discoursetm/#comment-24591</link>
		<dc:creator>Jacob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Jun 2008 21:27:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.snowflakesinhell.com/?p=3705#comment-24591</guid>
		<description>Sure microstamping.  There’s no public support for it anywhere, certainly not NY, yet it’s popped up in at least 13 states and CA passed it.  Why is that?  NRA has over a quarter of a million members in CA.  Were there a quarter of a million + 1 antis in CA writing/calling their reps. ?  No.  Despite no public support and the NRA having all those members, NRA was blown right out of the water.   Why?  Because the small number of savvy people pushing it, Mayor Bloomberg, the Legal Community Against Violence, and a handful of professional politicians, know how to move an agenda and don’t spend any time worrying about public opinion.  Same thing in NY.  With no public support, who exactly is pushing it?  A politican and a couple of professional antigun activists.  Who is their target audience, the general public?  No, more politicians in the State Senate.

Another example, the .50 cal ban in CA.  I remember when it passed and Cam talked about.  There were 7 people in the CA legislature that day lobbying for it: 2 went around visiting legislators and 5 more were eating in the cafeteria.  7 antis verses 250,000 NRA members and the NRA got spanked.

The NRA AM moved to Louisville after Columbus passed their gun ban.  There was no public support for that either.  The only people pushing it were Toby Hoover and the one or two others from the Ohio Coalition Against Gun Violence.  So Toby and her fax machine verses thousands resident gun owners and the millions in revenue from the NRA convention and what happens, Toby wins by a knockout.

This goes on all the time.  You&#039;re in PA.  Did you see thousands of people in Philadelphia demanding the City pass their gun laws?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sure microstamping.  There’s no public support for it anywhere, certainly not NY, yet it’s popped up in at least 13 states and CA passed it.  Why is that?  NRA has over a quarter of a million members in CA.  Were there a quarter of a million + 1 antis in CA writing/calling their reps. ?  No.  Despite no public support and the NRA having all those members, NRA was blown right out of the water.   Why?  Because the small number of savvy people pushing it, Mayor Bloomberg, the Legal Community Against Violence, and a handful of professional politicians, know how to move an agenda and don’t spend any time worrying about public opinion.  Same thing in NY.  With no public support, who exactly is pushing it?  A politican and a couple of professional antigun activists.  Who is their target audience, the general public?  No, more politicians in the State Senate.</p>
<p>Another example, the .50 cal ban in CA.  I remember when it passed and Cam talked about.  There were 7 people in the CA legislature that day lobbying for it: 2 went around visiting legislators and 5 more were eating in the cafeteria.  7 antis verses 250,000 NRA members and the NRA got spanked.</p>
<p>The NRA AM moved to Louisville after Columbus passed their gun ban.  There was no public support for that either.  The only people pushing it were Toby Hoover and the one or two others from the Ohio Coalition Against Gun Violence.  So Toby and her fax machine verses thousands resident gun owners and the millions in revenue from the NRA convention and what happens, Toby wins by a knockout.</p>
<p>This goes on all the time.  You&#8217;re in PA.  Did you see thousands of people in Philadelphia demanding the City pass their gun laws?</p>
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		<title>By: RAH</title>
		<link>http://www.snowflakesinhell.com/2008/06/09/the-root-of-reasoned-discoursetm/#comment-24590</link>
		<dc:creator>RAH</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Jun 2008 21:16:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.snowflakesinhell.com/?p=3705#comment-24590</guid>
		<description>In general terms I would say that the antis managed to forward their agenda to the general public and their representatives by using the emotional reaction of revulsion due to emotional public events.  Assassination of JFK and MLK are good examples. If they presented their agenda as not endangering the general populace hobbies and personal arms then there was no public rejection.  NRA during the 60&#039;s was an organization that membership comprised of mostly hunters and instructors or serious hobbyist at target shooting. As long as those hobbies were not affected then people had no objection to the making illegal mail order sales or interstate sales to people without a FFL. These are just examples.

After Columbine the reaction was that there should not be guns allowed in school and this was after years of public announcements indicating that handguns were dangerous and the emotional reaction turned against guns. If you had a child in school in those years most parents were against guns. Just because they had assimilated the general idea that guns are used only for killing.

Now the strong political action taken in state legislatures on CCW has made a significant difference. This was based on decades of degradation of civil society and a general anger at the level of crime. Other measures were 3 strikes and out and harsher penalties for crimes. It increased prison time and locked up more dangerous criminals.

State legislatures tend to run legislation in almost herd mentality. Once one state does it other states think it may be a good idea. People fed up with the prevailing idea that criminals were getting off scot-free and the fact that criminals seemed more likely to kill than in the past. Now the anti guns forces fought long and hard against Florida CCW. But after it was done thanks to the effort of those in Florida legislatures, other states decided to try it also. Texas instituted CCW and after that was in place and the surprising fact that CCW holders were more law abiding than then general population even, that representatives that were against the idea came around and said it was a good idea. Now this all happened under a time that had more Republican governors and southern democrats that were always pro gun. In the US House of Representative John Dingell stopped more gun legislation then most. He is a Democrat and somewhat liberal but not on gun issues. I am sure that NRA works closely with him. The NRA also became more resistance to gun restrictions and more gun rights friendly.  Wayne La Pierre has been very effective to push pro gun laws and stop anti gun efforts in the states.

Even Maryland the unrepentant liberal state has had senators and representatives in the state legislature that block gun restrictions.  The Attorney General Joseph Curran was very anti gun and he was there from 1987 to 2007. Our dear Nancy Pelosi is related to him. Every governor except Erlich was anti gun. But the representatives from the rural areas, most of them Democrats since Republicans cannot get elected in Maryland, managed to stop most of these efforts. Some did succeed but the worst were stopped.

In a very short time over 30 states have enacted CCW and Alaska has eliminated the need entirely. This is very fast. The results that come from that have had a lot to do with deconstructing the myths that guns are bad and only used for killing. Since those successes have spur more efforts to keep gun rights and not to agree to any more  “reasonable laws” Thirty years of reality have shown that the DC gun ban was totally ineffective and MD and VA have jealousy protected their own ability to not be stampeded by the DC local government.

Two emotionally shocking events have occurred that supported the gun rights agenda. 9/11 was a big one. That really jolted people out their complacency and made them think of their own personal protection in ways they never thought before. The second event was Katrina. The absolute lawlessness that was shown on the TV screen showed people that they absolutely must have guns for self-protection. The fact that on TV shoed that police from other states were taking the guns from good folks but that the bad guys were able to loot without any police action. This really got the lesson imprinted that in a disaster; do not depend on the police to protect you. That is better to have the means to protect yourself and family.


 	So back to Jacob’s point, that is better to have the organizations to lobby our representatives and have representatives that are pro gun elected and in place in the states and Congress. But the background of public accepted opinion about guns is important. 
The 1994 Assault Weapon Bill really galvanized the hobbyists and some hunters since they realized these were only cosmetic changes and that their shotguns and guns were in danger. The NRA really pushed the agenda and the Internet started to take off. More important local organizations were forming and with email were able to warn people about particular bills and larger numbers would show up in the state houses when bad bills were debated. NRA helped by the email alerts and so more people were advised of a dangerous bill and would go down to the capital and lobby against it.


So Jacob is correct that small but active people can have a disapportionate effect. Moving the levers of government can be done with less people. But the background of agreement needs to be there also to help it along. The surprising effect of the Bush administration and the Patriot Act made a lot of people on the political left rethink their idea of gun ownership. They started to think that the government could work against them and want to retain the right of firearms.

Now that many MSM and newspapers have opened comment sections, the numerous pro gun people have been able to vocalize their opinions. Since the numbers of these comments have been overwhelming pro gun with well reasoned arguments, the MSM is starting to realize that maybe guns are not bad and giving more balanced stories.

Virginia Tech was another pivotal moment when the failure of gun control pushed by the media on ABC, NBC, and CBS immediately after the event and the lack of affirmative response showed the changing environment. Students started thinking that if that happened in my class. I do not want to cower and wait to be shot.  The gun control groups tried to use this emotional event like they did Columbine but now people were started to realize that these gun controls laws have been ineffective and maybe that the idea of arming oneself may be credible. The fact that Heller happened to be argued and won on the Circuit Court and then Supreme Court has educated a lot of people and they are starting to question the mantra that guns are bad and only good for killing people.

Politicians are now gun shy since Bill Clinton said Al Gore lost due to be pro gun control. Now this is an issue that politician want to run from. Please see the amusing spectacle of anti gun folks like Obama and Hillary saying they now respect the 2 nd Amendment.

Events and pro gun reasoned arguments resonate more in the public and more people are open to the idea. But organization is more important to stop states like NJ to enact gun control laws.  I saw that dozens of states debated the micro stamping this year and I think this is a last ditch effort by pro gun groups and politicians before Heller has been decided.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In general terms I would say that the antis managed to forward their agenda to the general public and their representatives by using the emotional reaction of revulsion due to emotional public events.  Assassination of JFK and MLK are good examples. If they presented their agenda as not endangering the general populace hobbies and personal arms then there was no public rejection.  NRA during the 60&#8217;s was an organization that membership comprised of mostly hunters and instructors or serious hobbyist at target shooting. As long as those hobbies were not affected then people had no objection to the making illegal mail order sales or interstate sales to people without a FFL. These are just examples.</p>
<p>After Columbine the reaction was that there should not be guns allowed in school and this was after years of public announcements indicating that handguns were dangerous and the emotional reaction turned against guns. If you had a child in school in those years most parents were against guns. Just because they had assimilated the general idea that guns are used only for killing.</p>
<p>Now the strong political action taken in state legislatures on CCW has made a significant difference. This was based on decades of degradation of civil society and a general anger at the level of crime. Other measures were 3 strikes and out and harsher penalties for crimes. It increased prison time and locked up more dangerous criminals.</p>
<p>State legislatures tend to run legislation in almost herd mentality. Once one state does it other states think it may be a good idea. People fed up with the prevailing idea that criminals were getting off scot-free and the fact that criminals seemed more likely to kill than in the past. Now the anti guns forces fought long and hard against Florida CCW. But after it was done thanks to the effort of those in Florida legislatures, other states decided to try it also. Texas instituted CCW and after that was in place and the surprising fact that CCW holders were more law abiding than then general population even, that representatives that were against the idea came around and said it was a good idea. Now this all happened under a time that had more Republican governors and southern democrats that were always pro gun. In the US House of Representative John Dingell stopped more gun legislation then most. He is a Democrat and somewhat liberal but not on gun issues. I am sure that NRA works closely with him. The NRA also became more resistance to gun restrictions and more gun rights friendly.  Wayne La Pierre has been very effective to push pro gun laws and stop anti gun efforts in the states.</p>
<p>Even Maryland the unrepentant liberal state has had senators and representatives in the state legislature that block gun restrictions.  The Attorney General Joseph Curran was very anti gun and he was there from 1987 to 2007. Our dear Nancy Pelosi is related to him. Every governor except Erlich was anti gun. But the representatives from the rural areas, most of them Democrats since Republicans cannot get elected in Maryland, managed to stop most of these efforts. Some did succeed but the worst were stopped.</p>
<p>In a very short time over 30 states have enacted CCW and Alaska has eliminated the need entirely. This is very fast. The results that come from that have had a lot to do with deconstructing the myths that guns are bad and only used for killing. Since those successes have spur more efforts to keep gun rights and not to agree to any more  “reasonable laws” Thirty years of reality have shown that the DC gun ban was totally ineffective and MD and VA have jealousy protected their own ability to not be stampeded by the DC local government.</p>
<p>Two emotionally shocking events have occurred that supported the gun rights agenda. 9/11 was a big one. That really jolted people out their complacency and made them think of their own personal protection in ways they never thought before. The second event was Katrina. The absolute lawlessness that was shown on the TV screen showed people that they absolutely must have guns for self-protection. The fact that on TV shoed that police from other states were taking the guns from good folks but that the bad guys were able to loot without any police action. This really got the lesson imprinted that in a disaster; do not depend on the police to protect you. That is better to have the means to protect yourself and family.</p>
<p> 	So back to Jacob’s point, that is better to have the organizations to lobby our representatives and have representatives that are pro gun elected and in place in the states and Congress. But the background of public accepted opinion about guns is important.<br />
The 1994 Assault Weapon Bill really galvanized the hobbyists and some hunters since they realized these were only cosmetic changes and that their shotguns and guns were in danger. The NRA really pushed the agenda and the Internet started to take off. More important local organizations were forming and with email were able to warn people about particular bills and larger numbers would show up in the state houses when bad bills were debated. NRA helped by the email alerts and so more people were advised of a dangerous bill and would go down to the capital and lobby against it.</p>
<p>So Jacob is correct that small but active people can have a disapportionate effect. Moving the levers of government can be done with less people. But the background of agreement needs to be there also to help it along. The surprising effect of the Bush administration and the Patriot Act made a lot of people on the political left rethink their idea of gun ownership. They started to think that the government could work against them and want to retain the right of firearms.</p>
<p>Now that many MSM and newspapers have opened comment sections, the numerous pro gun people have been able to vocalize their opinions. Since the numbers of these comments have been overwhelming pro gun with well reasoned arguments, the MSM is starting to realize that maybe guns are not bad and giving more balanced stories.</p>
<p>Virginia Tech was another pivotal moment when the failure of gun control pushed by the media on ABC, NBC, and CBS immediately after the event and the lack of affirmative response showed the changing environment. Students started thinking that if that happened in my class. I do not want to cower and wait to be shot.  The gun control groups tried to use this emotional event like they did Columbine but now people were started to realize that these gun controls laws have been ineffective and maybe that the idea of arming oneself may be credible. The fact that Heller happened to be argued and won on the Circuit Court and then Supreme Court has educated a lot of people and they are starting to question the mantra that guns are bad and only good for killing people.</p>
<p>Politicians are now gun shy since Bill Clinton said Al Gore lost due to be pro gun control. Now this is an issue that politician want to run from. Please see the amusing spectacle of anti gun folks like Obama and Hillary saying they now respect the 2 nd Amendment.</p>
<p>Events and pro gun reasoned arguments resonate more in the public and more people are open to the idea. But organization is more important to stop states like NJ to enact gun control laws.  I saw that dozens of states debated the micro stamping this year and I think this is a last ditch effort by pro gun groups and politicians before Heller has been decided.</p>
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		<title>By: John Pate</title>
		<link>http://www.snowflakesinhell.com/2008/06/09/the-root-of-reasoned-discoursetm/#comment-24589</link>
		<dc:creator>John Pate</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Jun 2008 21:06:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.snowflakesinhell.com/?p=3705#comment-24589</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s a metaphor.  Or is that too obscure for a gunblog?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s a metaphor.  Or is that too obscure for a gunblog?</p>
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		<title>By: Nomen Nescio</title>
		<link>http://www.snowflakesinhell.com/2008/06/09/the-root-of-reasoned-discoursetm/#comment-24588</link>
		<dc:creator>Nomen Nescio</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Jun 2008 21:03:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.snowflakesinhell.com/?p=3705#comment-24588</guid>
		<description>you&#039;re seriously trying to use a &lt;i&gt;1950&#039;s sci-fi B-movie&lt;/i&gt; as an object lesson into &quot;leftist thought&quot; of today?! i swear, John, i could not make you up if i got drunk and stoned and tried with all my might. keep it up!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>you&#8217;re seriously trying to use a <i>1950&#8217;s sci-fi B-movie</i> as an object lesson into &#8220;leftist thought&#8221; of today?! i swear, John, i could not make you up if i got drunk and stoned and tried with all my might. keep it up!</p>
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		<title>By: John Pate</title>
		<link>http://www.snowflakesinhell.com/2008/06/09/the-root-of-reasoned-discoursetm/#comment-24579</link>
		<dc:creator>John Pate</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Jun 2008 20:12:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.snowflakesinhell.com/?p=3705#comment-24579</guid>
		<description>One of the most revealing insights into leftist thought is `The Day the Earth Stood Still.&#039;  Go watch it and think about the `perfect&#039; human society Ktaatu represents.  They had programmed `perfect morality&#039; into a race of incorruptible, super-powerful, robot policemen to make sin impossible.  They had, in fact, abandoned their adulthood, even perhaps their own humanity, for eternal childhood and the perfection of the machine. Leftists have abandoned their humanity because of their own self-loathing.  Of course, that&#039;s something a leftist can never really understand because they think they&#039;re better than everyone else for denying their own humanity and believing that their perfect system of living is the result of their perfect understanding.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One of the most revealing insights into leftist thought is `The Day the Earth Stood Still.&#8217;  Go watch it and think about the `perfect&#8217; human society Ktaatu represents.  They had programmed `perfect morality&#8217; into a race of incorruptible, super-powerful, robot policemen to make sin impossible.  They had, in fact, abandoned their adulthood, even perhaps their own humanity, for eternal childhood and the perfection of the machine. Leftists have abandoned their humanity because of their own self-loathing.  Of course, that&#8217;s something a leftist can never really understand because they think they&#8217;re better than everyone else for denying their own humanity and believing that their perfect system of living is the result of their perfect understanding.</p>
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		<title>By: Sebastian</title>
		<link>http://www.snowflakesinhell.com/2008/06/09/the-root-of-reasoned-discoursetm/#comment-24578</link>
		<dc:creator>Sebastian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Jun 2008 20:03:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.snowflakesinhell.com/?p=3705#comment-24578</guid>
		<description>Fair enough Jacob.  Why don&#039;t you explain exactly how they&#039;ve done this?  I&#039;d be happy to link to it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fair enough Jacob.  Why don&#8217;t you explain exactly how they&#8217;ve done this?  I&#8217;d be happy to link to it.</p>
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		<title>By: Jacob</title>
		<link>http://www.snowflakesinhell.com/2008/06/09/the-root-of-reasoned-discoursetm/#comment-24576</link>
		<dc:creator>Jacob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Jun 2008 19:57:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.snowflakesinhell.com/?p=3705#comment-24576</guid>
		<description>The opinions of the general population don&#039;t mean a thing.  The antis represent a tiny fringe of society.  They have been able to move their agenda with a small number of savvy people who understand how the legislative and political processes work.  The vast majority of gunnies do not understand this and spent far too much time fussing about other things like public opinion.  Very rarely do gunnies put any effort into understanding exactly how the antis have advanced their agenda or how to advanced a pro-gun agenda.  They think being &quot;right&quot; on the issues is enough.  It&#039;s not.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The opinions of the general population don&#8217;t mean a thing.  The antis represent a tiny fringe of society.  They have been able to move their agenda with a small number of savvy people who understand how the legislative and political processes work.  The vast majority of gunnies do not understand this and spent far too much time fussing about other things like public opinion.  Very rarely do gunnies put any effort into understanding exactly how the antis have advanced their agenda or how to advanced a pro-gun agenda.  They think being &#8220;right&#8221; on the issues is enough.  It&#8217;s not.</p>
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		<title>By: RAH</title>
		<link>http://www.snowflakesinhell.com/2008/06/09/the-root-of-reasoned-discoursetm/#comment-24575</link>
		<dc:creator>RAH</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Jun 2008 19:20:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.snowflakesinhell.com/?p=3705#comment-24575</guid>
		<description>The phrase I believe is that politics is war by other means.  Beware of being too reasonable. That is the methods that is used to create all these gun control restrictions since 1968. It is for the saftey of our schools that guns are banned. The safety of our parks where we have children is the reason for the ban. It is for public saftey that DC banned guns. The ironic thing is that DC banned guns in 1976 during the bicentennial of our founding</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The phrase I believe is that politics is war by other means.  Beware of being too reasonable. That is the methods that is used to create all these gun control restrictions since 1968. It is for the saftey of our schools that guns are banned. The safety of our parks where we have children is the reason for the ban. It is for public saftey that DC banned guns. The ironic thing is that DC banned guns in 1976 during the bicentennial of our founding</p>
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		<title>By: Jeff</title>
		<link>http://www.snowflakesinhell.com/2008/06/09/the-root-of-reasoned-discoursetm/#comment-24574</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Jun 2008 18:54:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.snowflakesinhell.com/?p=3705#comment-24574</guid>
		<description>Sebastian and Jacob, 
I think you&#039;re talking past each other.  I think we can all agree than reasonableness and humanization will never matter a whit to the Brady bunch and VPC and their ilk.  However, it&#039;s the key to winning over the general population.

I had a friend who accepted the &#039;guns are bad, m&#039;kay&#039; rhetoric, because its what he heard from his parents and on the news.  Once I explained the safety rules and common mechanical safety features, his fear was gone.  I haven&#039;t gotten him to the range yet, but I think it&#039;s only a matter of time.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sebastian and Jacob,<br />
I think you&#8217;re talking past each other.  I think we can all agree than reasonableness and humanization will never matter a whit to the Brady bunch and VPC and their ilk.  However, it&#8217;s the key to winning over the general population.</p>
<p>I had a friend who accepted the &#8216;guns are bad, m&#8217;kay&#8217; rhetoric, because its what he heard from his parents and on the news.  Once I explained the safety rules and common mechanical safety features, his fear was gone.  I haven&#8217;t gotten him to the range yet, but I think it&#8217;s only a matter of time.</p>
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		<title>By: John Pate</title>
		<link>http://www.snowflakesinhell.com/2008/06/09/the-root-of-reasoned-discoursetm/#comment-24567</link>
		<dc:creator>John Pate</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Jun 2008 16:49:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.snowflakesinhell.com/?p=3705#comment-24567</guid>
		<description>Some people who adopt leftist agendas do it for all sorts of reasons that are much more to do with personal advancement than any real belief in anything, sure.  Some people who have amazingly stupid ideas are extremely intelligent, sure.  But the reason lefties get so rabid and crazy is because, however cleverly they argue and however sophisticated their thinking, cognitive dissonance kicks in when they are confronted with reality versus their belief systems. Of course, in may ways the same thing could be said of a lot of people you could style as right wing. But it&#039;s ridiculous to pretend I don&#039;t understand lefties - I&#039;ve had that politics rammed down my throat my entire life.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Some people who adopt leftist agendas do it for all sorts of reasons that are much more to do with personal advancement than any real belief in anything, sure.  Some people who have amazingly stupid ideas are extremely intelligent, sure.  But the reason lefties get so rabid and crazy is because, however cleverly they argue and however sophisticated their thinking, cognitive dissonance kicks in when they are confronted with reality versus their belief systems. Of course, in may ways the same thing could be said of a lot of people you could style as right wing. But it&#8217;s ridiculous to pretend I don&#8217;t understand lefties &#8211; I&#8217;ve had that politics rammed down my throat my entire life.</p>
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		<title>By: Jacob</title>
		<link>http://www.snowflakesinhell.com/2008/06/09/the-root-of-reasoned-discoursetm/#comment-24563</link>
		<dc:creator>Jacob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Jun 2008 16:29:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.snowflakesinhell.com/?p=3705#comment-24563</guid>
		<description>I understand your argument about humanization, I just don’t agree with it.  You’re still holding onto a notion that somehow the reasonableness of our arguments will win the day.  You have to stop using your morality to try and understand the behavior of our opponents.  They don’t share it.  Once you do that you will achieve enlightenment.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I understand your argument about humanization, I just don’t agree with it.  You’re still holding onto a notion that somehow the reasonableness of our arguments will win the day.  You have to stop using your morality to try and understand the behavior of our opponents.  They don’t share it.  Once you do that you will achieve enlightenment.</p>
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		<title>By: Gregory Morris</title>
		<link>http://www.snowflakesinhell.com/2008/06/09/the-root-of-reasoned-discoursetm/#comment-24558</link>
		<dc:creator>Gregory Morris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Jun 2008 15:40:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.snowflakesinhell.com/?p=3705#comment-24558</guid>
		<description>&quot;People here might find it hard to believe that anti-gun people can be brought around, but they can.&quot;  Precisely.  I&#039;m sure some can&#039;t, but most of the anti-gun Suzie Soccer Moms out there CAN BE.  It takes both humanization, as Sebastian says, and actual hands-on experience like RKV says.  What&#039;s cool is, the two things work together quite nicely.  Sometimes you have to convince someone that gun owners aren&#039;t knuckle-dragging rednecks before you can convince them to go to the range.  Sometimes you have take someone to the range to convince them that gun owners aren&#039;t knuckle-dragging rednecks.  Sometimes, you&#039;ll hit a brick wall, but I&#039;d wager that most fence-sitters and even most antis can be brought around if we espouse the level-headedness shown by Sebastian.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;People here might find it hard to believe that anti-gun people can be brought around, but they can.&#8221;  Precisely.  I&#8217;m sure some can&#8217;t, but most of the anti-gun Suzie Soccer Moms out there CAN BE.  It takes both humanization, as Sebastian says, and actual hands-on experience like RKV says.  What&#8217;s cool is, the two things work together quite nicely.  Sometimes you have to convince someone that gun owners aren&#8217;t knuckle-dragging rednecks before you can convince them to go to the range.  Sometimes you have take someone to the range to convince them that gun owners aren&#8217;t knuckle-dragging rednecks.  Sometimes, you&#8217;ll hit a brick wall, but I&#8217;d wager that most fence-sitters and even most antis can be brought around if we espouse the level-headedness shown by Sebastian.</p>
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		<title>By: Sebastian</title>
		<link>http://www.snowflakesinhell.com/2008/06/09/the-root-of-reasoned-discoursetm/#comment-24556</link>
		<dc:creator>Sebastian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Jun 2008 15:25:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.snowflakesinhell.com/?p=3705#comment-24556</guid>
		<description>My argument in regards to humanization is that, well, the more people anti-gun folks see that don&#039;t fit the stereotype, the more they might question whether they are doing the right thing.  People here might find it hard to believe that anti-gun people can be brought around, but they can.  You may never make them pro-gun, but you can probably convince them there&#039;s not anything wrong with people owning them, if that&#039;s what they choose.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My argument in regards to humanization is that, well, the more people anti-gun folks see that don&#8217;t fit the stereotype, the more they might question whether they are doing the right thing.  People here might find it hard to believe that anti-gun people can be brought around, but they can.  You may never make them pro-gun, but you can probably convince them there&#8217;s not anything wrong with people owning them, if that&#8217;s what they choose.</p>
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		<title>By: Sebastian</title>
		<link>http://www.snowflakesinhell.com/2008/06/09/the-root-of-reasoned-discoursetm/#comment-24555</link>
		<dc:creator>Sebastian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Jun 2008 15:23:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.snowflakesinhell.com/?p=3705#comment-24555</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t think they are just doing it for the money.  No one takes a non-profit salary if they don&#039;t believe in what they are doing.  But I don&#039;t think they sit up a night and think &quot;How can we get back at those evil gun bloggers&quot; either.  I think what they believe, is they are fighting to save people&#039;s lives, like the folks you see on their new &quot;newswatch&quot; blog feature.  It&#039;s easy to convince yourself that folks like us might not be the problem, but there are enough problems to warrant further restrictions.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t think they are just doing it for the money.  No one takes a non-profit salary if they don&#8217;t believe in what they are doing.  But I don&#8217;t think they sit up a night and think &#8220;How can we get back at those evil gun bloggers&#8221; either.  I think what they believe, is they are fighting to save people&#8217;s lives, like the folks you see on their new &#8220;newswatch&#8221; blog feature.  It&#8217;s easy to convince yourself that folks like us might not be the problem, but there are enough problems to warrant further restrictions.</p>
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