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	<title>Comments on: First Amendment Issue in Pennsylvania</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.snowflakesinhell.com/2008/03/10/first-amendment-issue-in-pennsylvania/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.snowflakesinhell.com/2008/03/10/first-amendment-issue-in-pennsylvania/</link>
	<description>Where There's Snow, There's Firepower</description>
	<pubDate>Tue, 02 Dec 2008 03:42:13 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: joated</title>
		<link>http://www.snowflakesinhell.com/2008/03/10/first-amendment-issue-in-pennsylvania/#comment-20117</link>
		<dc:creator>joated</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Mar 2008 02:30:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.snowflakesinhell.com/2008/03/10/first-amendment-issue-in-pennsylvania/#comment-20117</guid>
		<description>The two topics that were flagged in the high school and middle school in which I taught (northern New Jersey) were drugs and guns. Any shirt with even a picture of a gun or a marijuna leaf would get a student sent home to change.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The two topics that were flagged in the high school and middle school in which I taught (northern New Jersey) were drugs and guns. Any shirt with even a picture of a gun or a marijuna leaf would get a student sent home to change.</p>
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		<title>By: thirdpower</title>
		<link>http://www.snowflakesinhell.com/2008/03/10/first-amendment-issue-in-pennsylvania/#comment-20088</link>
		<dc:creator>thirdpower</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Mar 2008 12:49:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.snowflakesinhell.com/2008/03/10/first-amendment-issue-in-pennsylvania/#comment-20088</guid>
		<description>When I was in HS, they banned  Heavy Metal band T-shirts because one of the board members saw an advertisement for a store that sold satanic paraphernalia in our town.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When I was in HS, they banned  Heavy Metal band T-shirts because one of the board members saw an advertisement for a store that sold satanic paraphernalia in our town.</p>
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		<title>By: Sebastian</title>
		<link>http://www.snowflakesinhell.com/2008/03/10/first-amendment-issue-in-pennsylvania/#comment-20078</link>
		<dc:creator>Sebastian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Mar 2008 05:18:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.snowflakesinhell.com/2008/03/10/first-amendment-issue-in-pennsylvania/#comment-20078</guid>
		<description>Thanks for that comment.  The situation is worse than I realized :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for that comment.  The situation is worse than I realized :)</p>
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		<title>By: gattsuru</title>
		<link>http://www.snowflakesinhell.com/2008/03/10/first-amendment-issue-in-pennsylvania/#comment-20077</link>
		<dc:creator>gattsuru</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Mar 2008 05:13:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.snowflakesinhell.com/2008/03/10/first-amendment-issue-in-pennsylvania/#comment-20077</guid>
		<description>He's lucky he got away with a two day detention: the schools I've been to recently would slap a suspension on that, if not an automatic expulsion  under their zero tolerance policies.

The relevant legal texts are... complicated.  &lt;i&gt;Tinker&lt;/i&gt; holds that public high schools are subject to the First Amendment's protection of freedom of speech, protecting obvious and symbolic speech that is not 'disruptive'.  If kids were actually treated as adults for First Amendment rights law, this shirt would only need to demonstrate that it wasn't disruptive or obscene, that it was inherently expressive, and that a ban against it was not content-neutral 

However, that protection is considered to be weaker than the protection offered to adults, in no small part due to the doctrine of 'in loco parentis', which gives schools the ability to act in the place of a legal guardian for some events (read: Nanny State!).  &lt;i&gt;Fraser&lt;/i&gt; made clear that  non-obscene speech could be limited, in this case if it were lewd and indecent -- this has been taken to the length of the &lt;i&gt;Broussard&lt;/i&gt; decision, where a shirt saying that "Drugs suck" was worth a day suspension, because "suck" has sexual connotations, although this only provides precedent over Fourth District.  The recent &lt;i&gt;Morse&lt;/i&gt; case demonstrated that schools have the ability to limit speech at all school-sponsored events, on and off school grounds, if that speech runs contrary to the educational mission of the school and/or provides a "serious and palpable" (Robert's words, not mine) fear of illegal action.  In addition, the general viewpoint of what is or is not 'disruptive' conduct is also seen as a might bit weaker in schools than out of them.

The end result is that, as in so many other cases, it's as much about whether your speech is popular as it is about any well-applied standards.   I'm sorry to say that, given the legal precedents and popular opinion, this kid's stuck on the 'wrong' side of that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>He&#8217;s lucky he got away with a two day detention: the schools I&#8217;ve been to recently would slap a suspension on that, if not an automatic expulsion  under their zero tolerance policies.</p>
<p>The relevant legal texts are&#8230; complicated.  <i>Tinker</i> holds that public high schools are subject to the First Amendment&#8217;s protection of freedom of speech, protecting obvious and symbolic speech that is not &#8216;disruptive&#8217;.  If kids were actually treated as adults for First Amendment rights law, this shirt would only need to demonstrate that it wasn&#8217;t disruptive or obscene, that it was inherently expressive, and that a ban against it was not content-neutral </p>
<p>However, that protection is considered to be weaker than the protection offered to adults, in no small part due to the doctrine of &#8216;in loco parentis&#8217;, which gives schools the ability to act in the place of a legal guardian for some events (read: Nanny State!).  <i>Fraser</i> made clear that  non-obscene speech could be limited, in this case if it were lewd and indecent &#8212; this has been taken to the length of the <i>Broussard</i> decision, where a shirt saying that &#8220;Drugs suck&#8221; was worth a day suspension, because &#8220;suck&#8221; has sexual connotations, although this only provides precedent over Fourth District.  The recent <i>Morse</i> case demonstrated that schools have the ability to limit speech at all school-sponsored events, on and off school grounds, if that speech runs contrary to the educational mission of the school and/or provides a &#8220;serious and palpable&#8221; (Robert&#8217;s words, not mine) fear of illegal action.  In addition, the general viewpoint of what is or is not &#8216;disruptive&#8217; conduct is also seen as a might bit weaker in schools than out of them.</p>
<p>The end result is that, as in so many other cases, it&#8217;s as much about whether your speech is popular as it is about any well-applied standards.   I&#8217;m sorry to say that, given the legal precedents and popular opinion, this kid&#8217;s stuck on the &#8216;wrong&#8217; side of that.</p>
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		<title>By: guy</title>
		<link>http://www.snowflakesinhell.com/2008/03/10/first-amendment-issue-in-pennsylvania/#comment-20075</link>
		<dc:creator>guy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Mar 2008 03:03:12 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>"it could proscribe an obscene t-shirt that could be construed as disruptive to the educational environment"

And if you ask the Brady Bunch the image of a firearm would fit that description perfectly.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;it could proscribe an obscene t-shirt that could be construed as disruptive to the educational environment&#8221;</p>
<p>And if you ask the Brady Bunch the image of a firearm would fit that description perfectly.</p>
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